[Assessment 1128] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or Comments?!

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Jackie Coelho jackie.coelho at gmail.com
Wed Feb 6 07:01:15 EST 2008


Forrest,
I like the idea of separate classes for those with a literacy background
and those without. These two groups have such different needs. Having both
in the class make it difficult for a teacher to meet the needs of either
group well and I find that often the stronger students dominate the class,
and their drive push the teacher forward. If the instructor does not keep up
with the students who are learning at a faster rate, they often become
frustrated and leave or mentally check out. However, if the instructor keeps
up with those students, the others are unable to keep up and they get
frustrated.
I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out. And regardless of
how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.
Jackie


On 2/5/08, Forrest Chisman <forrest at crosslink.net> wrote:

>

> To all of you who commented on level of prior education as a factor in

> student performance:

>

>

>

> Everyone with whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more highly

> educated students do better in terms of persistence, learning gains, and

> transitions. And learning theory would lead us to expect this. Regrettably

> we found very little hard data about how much difference prior education

> makes, because too few programs track the level of prior education of their

> students and correlate it with outcomes. DO any of you do this? That is, do

> you have any data on HOW MUCH difference level of prior education makes? Or

> any strong impressions? And are there "cut points" in prior education that

> seem to make a difference -- e.g. students who are completely illiterate,

> students who at least reached high school, high school graduates, college

> graduates, etc. -- or is level of prior education pretty much of a

> continuum?

>

>

>

> More importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between highly

> educated students and those with less prior education? Presumably students

> with very low levels of education are more likely end up in the lower level

> ESL courses (Literacy or Low-Beginning levels) why are (almost by

> definition) in the business of teaching basic literacy and sometimes math.

> Why isn't this enough? In your experience, does the "gap" exist at these

> levels too, or mainly at higher levels? At any levels, would it be desirable

> to place less highly educated students in separate classes from those with

> more education and adjust the curriculum/support systems for them

> accordingly? Some programs have tried "native language literacy" or the

> Spanish GED. What has been the experience of any of you with these

> approaches? Any other ideas? IS there an adult ESL equivalent of "bi-lingual

> education" that should be tried?

>

>

>

> It seems to me that we need to come up with better ideas. Because the

> people who study immigration tell us that the level of education of

> immigrants has been falling. And if Immigration Reform mandates large

> numbers of undocumented people to "learn English" (whatever that means), ESL

> programs may be swamped with students who have very little education in

> their native countries and too little money to serve them. So anyone who

> has any ideas about how to bridge this "education gap" could help us a lot

> by posting ideas about how to close it on this discussion list.

>

>

>

> Forrest Chisman

>

> Vice President

>

> CAAL

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *From:* assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] *On

> Behalf Of *Tina_Luffman at yc.edu

> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM

> *To:* The Assessment Discussion List

> *Subject:* [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or

> Comments?!

>

>

>

>

> Hi Jackie,

>

> Thank you for this information. I believe this research must be what my

> former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for bilingual education in

> the K-12 school system.

>

> Tina

>

> Tina Luffman

> Coordinator, Developmental Education

> Verde Valley Campus

> 928-634-6544

> tina_luffman at yc.edu

>

> *"Jackie Coelho" <jackie.coelho at gmail.com>*

> Sent by: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>

> 02/05/2008 11:13 AM

>

> Please respond to

> The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>

>

> To

>

> "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>

>

> cc

>

> Subject

>

> [Assessment 1108] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or

> Comments?!

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Tina,

>

> This has been researched already and is the basis for the arguement in

> favor of bilingual education, a good idea that was not implemented in

> the best way. For many years people have known that a good foundation

> in literacy in the first language will facilitate learning in a second

> or third language.

>

> Another interesting twist is the existence of languages that are not

> written.

>

> Jackie

>

>

> On 2/5/08, Tina_Luffman at yc.edu <Tina_Luffman at yc.edu> wrote:

> > Hi list members,

> >

> > My experience teaching ELAA students in the GED class is similar to that

> of

> > Gail. If the student has a solid educational background in the country

> they

> > came from in their native language, they tend to advance rather quickly

> and

> > get their GED. Those coming with 6th grade educations from their country

> or

> > lower tend to stay in the GED class for years and do not make much

> > advancement.

> >

> > This experience relates well to research done among Native American

> tribes

> > teaching them English. Those Native Americans who were first taught

> literacy

> > skills in their own tongue learned English much quicker than those who

> tried

> > to learn literacy skills in English without that background in their own

> > tongue. I also found similar problems when I was learning Spanish. The

> > concepts I could mentally translate from English to Spanish were much

> easier

> > to grasp and learn than those I didn't know in English. Perhaps this is

> > something deserving more research.

> >

> > Tina

> > Tina Luffman

> > Coordinator, Developmental Education

> > Verde Valley Campus

> > 928-634-6544

> > tina_luffman at yc.edu

> >

> > -----assessment-bounces at nifl.gov wrote: -----

> >

> > To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>

> > From: "Gail Burnett" <gburnett at sanford.org>

> > Sent by: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

> > Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM

> > Subject: [Assessment 1104] {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or

> > Comments?!

> >

> >

> > Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed

> > Warning: (not named).

> > Warning: Please read the "AttachmentWarning.txt" attachment(s) for more

> > information.

> >

> > In our small adult education program, my experience (just about three

> years)

> > is that students with solid educational backgrounds advance,

> particularly if

> > they're not working too many hours. Those who advance the slowest, if at

> > all, are immigrants who are barely literate in their first language. I

> would

> > say that lack of education is a bigger factor than lack of time; a

> student

> > who works full-time and is exhausted often will still succeed because

> he/she

> > is familiar with academic work, and is goal-oriented. What we do is try

> to

> > get our low-level students to come up with goals, but that's a hard

> concept

> > in a second language.

> >

> > This does not mean that the factors mentioned in the research don't play

> a

> > part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained teachers (transitioned

> from

> > another career, got trained mainly through workshops rather than

> classes).

> > My skill level very well may contribute to students' slow advancement.

> It's

> > hard for small adult education programs to get highly skilled ESL

> teachers.

> > The pay is low and there are no benefits. But my program is encouraging

> me

> > to get extra training and has me on a plan of improvement. I think we're

> > making some progress.

> >

> > Does this address any of the issues? And am I submitting it right?

> >

> > ________________________________

> >

> > From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Marie Cora

> > Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM

> > To: Assessment at nifl.gov

> > Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!

> >

> >

> > Hello everyone,

> >

> > I'm so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding your

> > program's effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? I was very

> > curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of issues that

> Dr.

> > Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack of intensity

> of

> > instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few opportunities

> for

> > professional development.

> >

> > What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL

> student

> > from advancing? What do you try to do about that?

> >

> > Please post your questions and comments now.

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Marie Cora

> > Assessment Discussion List Moderator

> >

> >

> > Marie Cora

> > marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

> > <mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>

> > NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

> > <marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>

> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

> >

> >

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