[Assessment 1145] Re: Observation checklist

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Forrest Chisman forrest at crosslink.net
Wed Feb 6 18:09:43 EST 2008


Ted,



I find that absolutely fascinating and thank you for sharing it. Yes, a 10%
decline is significant. I’m surprised that someone hasn’t tried to export
these military assessments to the civilian sector – given the general
dissatisfaction with the assessments most commonly used. Has this been
actively explored by anyone you know? Is there any reason why it shouldn’t
be? Was there anything more than inertia to the resistance you met?



My other point had to do with motivation. As you know, it’s a big problem in
ESL classes. Presumably military personnel under orders to “learn English”
are highly motivated. I’m just wondering what difference that would make in
appropriate class size and other variables. Any ideas? For example, one
reason for larger classes in many ESL programs is (I think) that all
students don’t show up at all sessions, and there is attrition throughout
the year.



But you’ve given me, at least, a string to follow. And I will.



Forrest



From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Ted Klein
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:40 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1142] Re: Observation checklist



Forrest,



The person who started the DLIELC testing program, not too long after WW II,
was Sydney Sako. Sydney was a mathematician with a strong interest in
language. The people who developed the test items were well-educated
language people. I'm a right brained/creative person, who was the second
oldest person in his high school class to graduate, because of math.
Therefore, I really don't understand the whole process. However, I recognize
what works. The English Comprehension Level (ECL) test, was amazingly
successful. Each form, and there were many, was normed against other forms
and the numbers were very steady. It was a combination of around 120
listening and reading multiple choice items. If you tested students using
different forms, the numbers were quite close. Each specialty required a
specific score; 65 for admittance to on-the-job training, 90 for Staff
College, 85 for pilots, etc. When I was in the program, the failure rate
among students who went on into their specialty because of language
problems, was very small...something like 5%. In the 1980's the federal Oral
Proficiency Interview (OPI) was added for persons who needed specific
speaking levels, such as air traffic controllers, pilots, Puerto Rican ROTC
graduates to get their commissions and some others. I understand that the
ECL is now done on a computer, but the principles remain basically the same.
You can get up-to-date information on the current system at
http://www.dlielc.org/testing/ecl_test.html Students who had received a
good balance of training; listening, speaking, reading and writing skills
and who performed well on the ECL test were generally also proficient
orally.



There is a second option, the American Language Course Placement Test
(ALCPT) which consists of expired ECL tests that DLIELC can sell to
recognized educational institutions. Several years ago I tried to get it
adapted for Adult Education here, rather than the current system. The effort
was almost successful, as a lot of people liked it. It was much quicker and
cheaper to administer than what happens now and doesn't depend on opinion.
However, acceptance of change is always a problem in anything. I have an
article about the ALCPT on my website at
http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/lang_tests.html The ALCPT does not test
persons who can't read English, but there are alternative ways to place
students in that situation.



Military personnel are much more reflective of the population as a whole
than one might imagine. Don't count on the accuracy of my memory on all of
the details, but if I recall there was something like a ten percent drop in
average proficiency gain monthly, when two or three students were added to a
class of ten. DLI Training Management had wheels to predict how long it
would take to gain X many points and they were surprisingly accurate.
Students were in class four hours a day and two more hours in a supervised
lab, five days a week. Scores were used for placement as well as graduation.
My personal experience of this whole English Language Training package was
positive. There were always complaints, but the proof was in the pudding.



Now I live in the "do your own thing" world which is much more fun. However,
I respect other ways of operating. The main difference is that students were
in their national uniforms, had to be on time and the system was more
"regimented." Occasionally persons from the academic community find teaching
jobs there and some of them run away at the first opportunity! Others stay
for a career. I managed...and have some fond memories. I have been in ESL
since 1961, so DLIELC represents less than half of my career.



Cheers, Ted



Theodore A. (Ted) Klein, Jr.
Independent Consultant in Language
and Intercultural Training
14456 Agarita Road
Austin, Texas 78734-2009
Phone:512-266-1801
taklein at austin.rr.com
www.tedklein-ESL.com




----- Original Message -----

From: Forrest Chisman <mailto:forrest at crosslink.net>

To: 'The Assessment <mailto:assessment at nifl.gov> Discussion List'

Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 10:07 AM

Subject: [Assessment 1132] Re: Observation checklist



Ted,



This is fascinating stuff. Jodi will probably have more questions about it
than I do. (Jodi take note!) My major question is how far one can generalize
from the DLIELC experience. After all, military personnel are a “captive
audience” and it’s part of their “job” to learn English via DLI. As a
result, one would assume they are a very motivated bunch. Do you think this
skews your finding about class size, instructional time and other variables,
or not? Also, how large were the test differences when you “squeezed in” a
few more students/class? Do you think the tests were good enough to make
those differences meaningful?



Forrest







From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Ted Klein
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 8:58 AM
To: Jodi Crandall; The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1130] Re: Observation checklist



Hi Jodi,



Greetings from Lake Travis in Texas. We met a couple of times in the past, I
think at least once when you visited the Defense Language Institute English
Language Center in San Antonio and at TESOL. The reason I mention DLI is
that it represents a language program with little leeway to fail. I spent 20
years from 1968-1988 with them. Their mission was/is to train allied and
friendly military personnel worldwide in general and specialized English.
Most students start ESL in their home countries with DLIELC personnel
advising, and in some cases teaching, in these overseas military language
centers. It may still be the largest language program in the world. Students
after reaching certain levels go to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio,
complete their general English, usually go through specialized terminology
and then on to whatever training their country needs with the U.S. military.
Students have run the full gamut from recruits and NCO's up to generals and
admirals. This is a very tightly organized "well-packaged" language program
with predictable training times and results.



Here's why I bring you this background. The rule of thumb while I was at at
DLI on class sizes was 8 students optimum and 10 maximum. This was rarely
broken. However, once in a while a higher headquarters' bean counter would
calculate that if a mere two or three students could be added to a class,
voila, look at the money we would save! This money came both from foreign
governments and Uncle Sam. DLI would argue and then try it, I believe
several times over the years. However, in an organization that has a very
effective testing system; both achievement and proficiency, it was soon
noticed that the scores were going down, just enough so that they could
prove that no money was being saved on teacher salaries and other expenses.
I spent three years with the Royal Thai Navy for DLI as language training
advisor and remember having to twist arms with the RTN Navy Education
Department with the same problem. They wanted 15 in a class.



Here's what I suggest. I accept these numbers and know during my last eight
years of teaching adult immigrants that my best classes have consistently
been smaller. My students average around 9-11. If an organization is stuck
with a low budget, make the hours of training per week lower, but keep the
class sizes within 10 or so students. Fewer hours of really effective
training are certainly better than large classes where the student attention
level and collegiality are reduced. I remember Mary Finocchiaro saying years
ago that she didn't care how many students were in her classroom, she would
teach them! Unfortunately, most of us just aren't THAT dynamic.



Cheers, Ted

www.tedklein-ESL.com







----- Original Message -----

From: "JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall" <crandall at umbc.edu>

To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>

Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:23 PM

Subject: [Assessment 1125] Re: Observation checklist



Usha,

I'm not sure where Ted came up with that number. Ted, is it your
experience that with more than 10 students, learning decreases? If so,
how do you fund that number? I think a lot of people would be interested
in ways to decrease class size.

It's more typical to have larger classes because of the funding
constraints you talk about. With more students, it becomes more important
to involve them in activities in which all get to participate, which means
less teacher talk and more student interaction. But even small classes
need that.

What do others feel about the "ideal class size"?

You have also identified some of the major reasons adults drop out of
classes (or opt out, only to return at a later date). Do any of you keep
records of your students that would identify those who do return? Do you
have any idea of whether they have tried to continue learning English
outside of the classroom and how they did this? I don't know of any
research about adult English Language Learners in this area, but there is
an ongoing study by Stephen Reder and others at Portland State University
following adult literacy level students for several years. They have
identified some ways in which adults continue learning outside of the
classroom and also that some of these learners come back to classes after
being out of them for some time.

Providing support services is always a challenge. Have any of you been
able to partner with other organizations to reduce the cost of these
services to your program? What kinds of partnerships have been most
effective? If you teach in a community college, have your students had
access to the various support services provided to other students?

Several of you have talked about the differences in progress made by
students with more advanced education and those who are at literacy level.
Because literacy level students take longer in making progress, most
programs provide separate classes for literacy level students and literate
beginners. Those learners with limited formal schooling and literacy will
need more time to make progress. I'm going to ask Forrest to talk about
what he and Steve Spurling and Sharon Seymour found out about persistence
of literacy level students and their learning gains.

Students with advanced education in their own language may be able to have
a condensed program since they are already experienced as students and
often have high motivation to get through English so that they can take
courses related to their previous or future career. City College of San
Francisco offers an "accelerated course" in which 2 semesters worth of
work is taught during one. Do any of your programs offer something along
these lines?

Jodi



> I have not been a part of this discussion and I really liked the tool that

> Ted has shared with us. However, I have question and I hope that it is

> not

> something that has already been asked and answered.

>

> The first item on Ted¹s list is a little confusing. In most of our ESL

> classes we enroll more than 10 students because of fiscal constraints and

> the need for ESL in the community. So is it a negative or a positive to

> have fewer than 10 students in a class? In our case, we expect to see

> more

> than 10 students in a class and for the teacher to sustain the numbers.

>

> As for the achievement gap, it is huge issue in all literacy programs

> because of many socio-economic factors.

>

> In our area, part of the Bay Area, the boom in the housing market (in past

> several years) and high rents made it difficult for people to stay in one

> neighborhood. Therefore they constantly move (this is seen more in people

> who do not have high levels of education from their native country).

>

> People with a certain level of education (college degrees from their

> countries are more likely to find stable jobs and have some kind of

> community support). Most other people hold two or more jobs, go in and

> out

> of classes, change schedules, and finally drop out because of various

> constraints. More than likely, they lack study skills and have no time to

> practice.

>

> The achievement gap stems not only from the differences in educational

> levels of immigrants, but also due the huge difference in the

> availability

> of community resources.

>

> Usha Narayanan

> Sunnyvale-Cupertino Adult Education

> California

> 408-522-2737

>

>

> On 2/5/08 1:00 PM, "Ted Klein" <taklein at austin.rr.com> wrote:

>

>> Marie,

>>

>> I did this list years ago based on literally decades in and out of the

>> U.S.A.

>> teaching, training teachers, supervising, coordinating, etc. in ESL. It

>> is

>> based on what seems to work or not work. I'm proud to say that I'm back

>> in the

>> ESL trenches after, among other things, twenty years with the Defense

>> Language

>> Institute English Language Center. I've been teaching immigrants part

>> time for

>> the last eight years for the Adult Education Department at Austin

>> Community

>> College. Getting back in the trenches has reminded me of what language

>> teaching is all about. I feel sorry for anybody who has to work at a

>> higher

>> level, because that's really not as much fun! I truly hope that I apply

>> everything on my list daily and don't fall into any of the "easy traps."

>> I

>> have distributed this list over the years to anybody who seemed

>> interested and

>> it is published on my website at

>> http://www.tedklein-esl.com/ESL/20questions.html Feel absolutely free

>> to use

>> it in any way that will make life easier for students. Thank you very

>> much for

>> the input. Questions are welcome.

>>

>> Cheers, Ted

>>

>> Theodore A. (Ted) Klein, Jr.

>> Independent Consultant in Language

>> and Intercultural Training

>> 14456 Agarita Road

>> Austin, Texas 78734-2009

>> Phone:512-266-1801

>> taklein at austin.rr.com <mailto:taklein at austin.rr.com>

>> www.tedklein-ESL.com <http://www.tedklein-ESL.com>

>>

>>

>> ----- Original Message -----

>>>

>>> From: Marie Cora <mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>

>>>

>>> To: Assessment at nifl.gov

>>>

>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:42 PM

>>>

>>> Subject: [Assessment 1110] Re: Observation checklist

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Hi Ted,

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Thanks for this. This is a great list - did you generate it yourself?

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> I guess I have a bunch of questions for you about it:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> How do you use it? As a general guide, or do you deliberately try to

>>> address each item? Are you the only one who uses this, or do others

>>> you

>>> work with?

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Do you find that if you adhere to these principles, that the students

>>> advance?

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Marie

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> -----Original Message-----

>>>> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>> [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On

>>>> Behalf Of Ted Klein

>>>> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 9:49 PM

>>>> To: The Assessment Discussion List

>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1105] Re: No Questions or Comments?!

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Marie,

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> In the long run, this may be all that I know.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Ted

>>>>

>>>> www.tedklein-ESL.com <http://www.tedklein-ESL.com>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 20 Questions: LANGUAGE CLASS OBSERVATION CHECKLIST YES

>>>> NO

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 1. Were there 10 or fewer students in the class?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 2. Was the classroom comfortable in terms of

>>>>

>>>> environment and learning atmosphere?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 3. Did the instructor have a pleasant and

>>>>

>>>> supportive personality?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 4. Were the lessons communication centered,

>>>>

>>>> rather than informational, most of the time?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 5. Was the instructor a native-speaker or

>>>>

>>>> near native-speaker of the target language?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 6. Was the target language used as a medium

>>>>

>>>> of instruction all or most of the time?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 7. Did the students do most of the communication,

>>>>

>>>> rather than the instructor?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 8. Did the instructor maintain control of the class

>>>>

>>>> in a non-threatening manner?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 9. Did members of the class seem compatible with each

>>>>

>>>> other and the instructor?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 10. Did the students seem closely matched in their

>>>>

>>>> target language proficiency?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 11. Did all of the students participate?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 12. Were students enthusiastic?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 13. Did the instructor use a variety of techniques

>>>>

>>>> to elicit communication activities?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 14. Did the instructor assist students, rather

>>>>

>>>> than push them?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 15. Did the instructor use normal, rather than

>>>>

>>>> exaggerated speech?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 16. Were training aids used to enhance or reinforce

>>>>

>>>> results?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 17. Were new learning objectives reinforced adequately?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 18. Was correction applied moderately and positively

>>>>

>>>> so that it wouldn't inhibit communication?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 19. Was there a balance of language skills (listening,

>>>>

>>>> speaking, reading and writing?)

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 20. Were students dealt with appropriately for their

>>>>

>>>> ages? (e.g. adults treated like adults).

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> ---- Original Message -----

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> From: Marie Cora <mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>

>>>>>

>>>>> To: Assessment at nifl.gov

>>>>>

>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 5:50 PM

>>>>>

>>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Hello everyone,

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I¹m so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding your

>>>>> program¹s effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? I was

>>>>> very

>>>>> curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of issues

>>>>> that

>>>>> Dr. Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack of

>>>>> intensity

>>>>> of instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few

>>>>> opportunities

>>>>> for professional development.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL

>>>>> student

>>>>> from advancing? What do you try to do about that?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Please post your questions and comments now.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Thanks!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Marie Cora

>>>>>

>>>>> Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Marie Cora

>>>>>

>>>>> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

>>>>> <mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>

>>>>>

>>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>>>>>

>>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> -------------------------------

>>>>> National Institute for Literacy

>>>>> Assessment mailing list

>>>>> Assessment at nifl.gov

>>>>> To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to

>>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

>>>>> Email delivered to taklein at austin.rr.com

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> -------------------------------

>>> National Institute for Literacy

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>>

>>

>> -------------------------------

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>> Assessment mailing list

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>> Email delivered to usha_narayanan at fuhsd.org

>

>

>

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>



--
JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall
Professor, Education Department
Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture
Coordinator, Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual
Education
University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC)
1000 Hilltop Circle, Baltimore, MD 21250
ph: 410-455-2313/2376 fax: 410-455-8947/1880
email: crandall at umbc.edu
www.umbc.edu/llc/
www.umbc.edu/esol/
www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html



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