[Assessment 1192] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions orComments?!

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Jodi Crandall crandall at umbc.edu
Fri Feb 8 13:17:58 EST 2008


Noa,

These are fabulous ideas. I especially like the emphasis on how
literacy level students can help those who are more educated and also
cooperate and compete with them in the snack bar and boutique.

You have provided clear guidance on how to maximize both groups'
strengths and also encourage them to learn from each other.

By the way, "boutique" is so much more positive a name than the usual
"closet" or another name that sounds like it's charity.

Do others have suggestions of ways of accommodating literacy level
and more educated students in the same class.

Jodi

On Feb 8, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Sadan, Noa wrote:


> Jodi,

>

> The classroom mix of the highly educated literate students who

> didn't know English with the literacy level beginning English

> students was often a challenge. The first (unstated) task was to

> help the educated students realize that they might learn a great

> deal from those who picked up oral language faster than they did.

>

> Techniques for dealing with the mixed levels:

> The Key: fostering a sense of community within the class

> Main technique: Group work - teacher as enabler, moving around

> the groups

> extra reading help in reading given while class was working

> on either written assignments or group projects

> groups were mixed

> always by language

> occasionally by gender

> rarely by ability (only when reading lessons

> specifically for the literacy group were held)

> School Job: The Refugee Center has a working Snack Bar, and

> Boutique (donated clothing - everything sells for fifty cents/item).

> students polish their abilty to work together

> students learn chain of command (literacy level students

> are supervisors just as often as the highly educated, since they

> often have a verbal advantage)

> literacy-level students could make coffee, serve as a

> cashier, and give excellent customer service

> a highly educated accountant who cannot get out an English

> sentence orally, could create a cost-accounting spreadsheet see if

> it was less expensive to buy bulk sugar or packets for coffee.

> Other projects are used as well - making recipe books, making

> student profile books. Today, with the use of the computer, the

> possibilities are endless for activities for mixed classes.

>

> Noa

>

> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-

> bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Jodi Crandall

> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:59 PM

> To: The Assessment Discussion List

> Subject: [Assessment 1152] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No

> Questions orComments?!

>

> Noa,

>

> Thanks for sharing this. How wonderful to have had 20 hours per

> week for these students. Besides mutual respect (which is very

> important), were there ways in which students could use their

> complementary skills to help each other. If you could describe

> some of the activities that you or others used that were helpful,

> that would be great.

>

> If others of you could share your experiences with mixed classes,

> and how you coped with them, I think a lot of us would be interested.

>

> The change to separate Listening, Reading and "Homeroom" classes is

> also a very interesting way of meeting the needs of this diverse

> population. I know that many community colleges separate their

> instruction in adult ESL to oral language skills (Listening/

> Speaking) and written language (Reading/Writing) skills. Are there

> others out there who could share your experiences in this regard?

>

> The presence of World English speakers and Generation 1.5 speakers

> in adult ESL has further complicated the situation. I'd be

> interested in knowing how others have dealt with such diverse

> students in adult ESL/ESOL.

>

> Jodi

>

>

>

> n Feb 7, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Sadan, Noa wrote:

>

>> Years ago, the Montgomery County Refugee Training Program (Montgomery

>> College, Silver Spring, MD)had highly educated people with no

>> English,

>> in class with literacy level students. It was certainly difficult

>> meeting the needs of all students, but in this intensive 20-hours/

>> week

>> program, a tremendous mutual respect was fostered between the groups.

>> Typically, the highly educated students raced ahead with reading and

>> writing, while the literacy students sped ahead with oral

>> language. The

>> Somali mother of nine would say to the Russian engineer, "I wish I

>> could

>> read and write like you!", while the Russian woman would reply, "I

>> wish

>> I could speak like you."

>>

>> All this ended with a slightly different solution. The Refugee

>> Center,

>> then under the direction of Donna Kinerney, divided that school

>> day into

>> separate Listening,Reading and "Homeroom" classes. Homerooom took

>> in all

>> skills, plus the introduction to the American workplace. This

>> model was

>> in place when we began to get World English speakers who were not

>> literate. It provided a solution in which they could study in a

>> literacy-level reading/writing class, and interact in a higher level

>> Listening and Homeroom class.

>>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-

>> bounces at nifl.gov]

>> On Behalf Of JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall

>> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 3:10 PM

>> To: The Assessment Discussion List

>> Subject: [Assessment 1139] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No

>> Questions or

>> Comments?!

>>

>> Jackie and Forrest,

>>

>> I think most large programs separate literacy level students from

>> others

>> who are at a beginning level. I know that back in the 1980s when

>> there

>> were large refugee ESL programs, several community colleges created

>> parallel ESL classes for the beginning levels and even into

>> intermediate

>> levels, with one set of classes for students with limited literacy or

>> prior schooling and another for more educated students. The

>> reason was

>> that the students with less education made slower progress. Some of

>> this is undoubtedly due to the way in which we teach English

>> (requiring

>> literacy), but it is also because students need to become

>> accustomed to

>> attending classes, learning to hold and use a pen or pencil, and a

>> wide

>> range of basic skills that come with being a student in a class.

>>

>> Those of you who have separate classes for those who need literacy:

>> Can

>> you tell us what kind of classes or program you provide?

>>

>> Those who teach both literacy and more educated learners in the same

>> class: Can you let us know how you manage? What are some ways in

>> which

>> you accommodate both sets of needs?

>>

>> Jodi

>>> Forrest,

>>> I like the idea of separate classes for those with a literacy

>>> background and those without. These two groups have such different

>>> needs. Having both in the class make it difficult for a teacher to

>>> meet the needs of either group well and I find that often the

>>> stronger

>>

>>> students dominate the class, and their drive push the teacher

>>> forward.

>>

>>> If the instructor does not keep up with the students who are

>>> learning

>>> at a faster rate, they often become frustrated and leave or mentally

>>> check out. However, if the instructor keeps up with those students,

>>> the others are unable to keep up and they get frustrated.

>>> I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out. And

>>> regardless

>>

>>> of how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.

>>> Jackie

>>>

>>>

>>> On 2/5/08, Forrest Chisman <forrest at crosslink.net> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> To all of you who commented on level of prior education as a

>>>> factor

>>>> in student performance:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Everyone with whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more

>>>> highly educated students do better in terms of persistence,

>>>> learning

>>

>>>> gains, and transitions. And learning theory would lead us to expect

>>>> this.

>>>> Regrettably

>>>> we found very little hard data about how much difference prior

>>>> education makes, because too few programs track the level of prior

>>>> education of their students and correlate it with outcomes. DO

>>>> any of

>>

>>>> you do this? That is, do you have any data on HOW MUCH difference

>>>> level of prior education makes?

>>>> Or

>>>> any strong impressions? And are there "cut points" in prior

>>>> education

>>

>>>> that seem to make a difference -- e.g. students who are completely

>>>> illiterate, students who at least reached high school, high school

>>>> graduates, college graduates, etc. -- or is level of prior

>>>> education

>>

>>>> pretty much of a continuum?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> More importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between

>>>> highly educated students and those with less prior education?

>>>> Presumably students with very low levels of education are more

>>>> likely

>>

>>>> end up in the lower level ESL courses (Literacy or Low-Beginning

>>>> levels) why are (almost by

>>>> definition) in the business of teaching basic literacy and

>>>> sometimes

>>

>>>> math.

>>>> Why isn't this enough? In your experience, does the "gap" exist at

>>>> these levels too, or mainly at higher levels? At any levels,

>>>> would it

>>

>>>> be desirable to place less highly educated students in separate

>>>> classes from those with more education and adjust the

>>>> curriculum/support systems for them accordingly? Some programs have

>>>> tried "native language literacy" or the Spanish GED. What has been

>>>> the experience of any of you with these approaches? Any other

>>>> ideas?

>>>> IS there an adult ESL equivalent of "bi-lingual education" that

>>>> should be tried?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> It seems to me that we need to come up with better ideas.

>>>> Because the

>>

>>>> people who study immigration tell us that the level of education of

>>>> immigrants has been falling. And if Immigration Reform mandates

>>>> large

>>

>>>> numbers of undocumented people to "learn English" (whatever that

>>>> means), ESL programs may be swamped with students who have very

>>>> little education in their native countries and too little money to

>>>> serve them. So anyone who has any ideas about how to bridge this

>>>> "education gap" could help us a lot by posting ideas about how to

>>>> close it on this discussion list.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Forrest Chisman

>>>>

>>>> Vice President

>>>>

>>>> CAAL

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> *From:* assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>> [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]

>>>> *On

>>>> Behalf Of *Tina_Luffman at yc.edu

>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM

>>>> *To:* The Assessment Discussion List

>>>> *Subject:* [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No

>>>> Questions or Comments?!

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Hi Jackie,

>>>>

>>>> Thank you for this information. I believe this research must be

>>>> what

>>>> my former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for bilingual

>>>> education in the K-12 school system.

>>>>

>>>> Tina

>>>>

>>>> Tina Luffman

>>>> Coordinator, Developmental Education

>>>> Verde Valley Campus

>>>> 928-634-6544

>>>> tina_luffman at yc.edu

>>>>

>>>> *"Jackie Coelho" <jackie.coelho at gmail.com>* Sent by:

>>>> assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>>

>>>> 02/05/2008 11:13 AM

>>>>

>>>> Please respond to

>>>> The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>

>>>>

>>>> To

>>>>

>>>> "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>

>>>>

>>>> cc

>>>>

>>>> Subject

>>>>

>>>> [Assessment 1108] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or

>>>> Comments?!

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Hi Tina,

>>>>

>>>> This has been researched already and is the basis for the arguement

>>>> in favor of bilingual education, a good idea that was not

>>>> implemented

>>

>>>> in the best way. For many years people have known that a good

>>>> foundation in literacy in the first language will facilitate

>>>> learning

>>

>>>> in a second or third language.

>>>>

>>>> Another interesting twist is the existence of languages that are

>>>> not

>>>> written.

>>>>

>>>> Jackie

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On 2/5/08, Tina_Luffman at yc.edu <Tina_Luffman at yc.edu> wrote:

>>>>> Hi list members,

>>>>>

>>>>> My experience teaching ELAA students in the GED class is

>>>>> similar to

>>>> that

>>>> of

>>>>> Gail. If the student has a solid educational background in the

>>>>> country

>>>> they

>>>>> came from in their native language, they tend to advance rather

>>>> quickly

>>>> and

>>>>> get their GED. Those coming with 6th grade educations from their

>>>> country

>>>> or

>>>>> lower tend to stay in the GED class for years and do not make much

>>>>> advancement.

>>>>>

>>>>> This experience relates well to research done among Native

>>>>> American

>>>> tribes

>>>>> teaching them English. Those Native Americans who were first

>>>>> taught

>>>> literacy

>>>>> skills in their own tongue learned English much quicker than those

>>>>> who

>>>> tried

>>>>> to learn literacy skills in English without that background in

>>>>> their

>>>> own

>>>>> tongue. I also found similar problems when I was learning Spanish.

>>>>> The concepts I could mentally translate from English to Spanish

>>>>> were much

>>>> easier

>>>>> to grasp and learn than those I didn't know in English. Perhaps

>>>>> this

>>>> is

>>>>> something deserving more research.

>>>>>

>>>>> Tina

>>>>> Tina Luffman

>>>>> Coordinator, Developmental Education Verde Valley Campus

>>>>> 928-634-6544

>>>>> tina_luffman at yc.edu

>>>>>

>>>>> -----assessment-bounces at nifl.gov wrote: -----

>>>>>

>>>>> To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>

>>>>> From: "Gail Burnett" <gburnett at sanford.org> Sent by:

>>>>> assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>>>>> Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM

>>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1104] {Dangerous Content?} RE: No

>>>>> Questions or

>>

>>>>> Comments?!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed

>>>>> Warning: (not named).

>>>>> Warning: Please read the "AttachmentWarning.txt" attachment(s) for

>>>> more

>>>>> information.

>>>>>

>>>>> In our small adult education program, my experience (just about

>>>>> three

>>>> years)

>>>>> is that students with solid educational backgrounds advance,

>>>> particularly if

>>>>> they're not working too many hours. Those who advance the slowest,

>>>>> if

>>>> at

>>>>> all, are immigrants who are barely literate in their first

>>>>> language. I

>>>> would

>>>>> say that lack of education is a bigger factor than lack of time; a

>>>> student

>>>>> who works full-time and is exhausted often will still succeed

>>>>> because

>>>> he/she

>>>>> is familiar with academic work, and is goal-oriented. What we

>>>>> do is

>>>> try

>>>> to

>>>>> get our low-level students to come up with goals, but that's a

>>>>> hard

>>>> concept

>>>>> in a second language.

>>>>>

>>>>> This does not mean that the factors mentioned in the research

>>>>> don't

>>>> play

>>>> a

>>>>> part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained teachers

>>>>> (transitioned

>>>> from

>>>>> another career, got trained mainly through workshops rather than

>>>> classes).

>>>>> My skill level very well may contribute to students' slow

>> advancement.

>>>> It's

>>>>> hard for small adult education programs to get highly skilled ESL

>>>> teachers.

>>>>> The pay is low and there are no benefits. But my program is

>>>> encouraging

>>>> me

>>>>> to get extra training and has me on a plan of improvement. I think

>>>> we're

>>>>> making some progress.

>>>>>

>>>>> Does this address any of the issues? And am I submitting it right?

>>>>>

>>>>> ________________________________

>>>>>

>>>>> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Marie Cora

>>>>> Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM

>>>>> To: Assessment at nifl.gov

>>>>> Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Hello everyone,

>>>>>

>>>>> I'm so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding

>>>>> your

>>

>>>>> program's effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? I was

>>>>> very curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of

>>>>> issues

>>>> that

>>>> Dr.

>>>>> Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack of

>>>>> intensity

>>>> of

>>>>> instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few

>>>>> opportunities

>>>> for

>>>>> professional development.

>>>>>

>>>>> What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL

>>>> student

>>>>> from advancing? What do you try to do about that?

>>>>>

>>>>> Please post your questions and comments now.

>>>>>

>>>>> Thanks!

>>>>>

>>>>> Marie Cora

>>>>> Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Marie Cora

>>>>> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

>>>>> <mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>

>>>>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>>>>> <marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>

>>>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

>>>>>

>>>>>

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>>>>>

>>>>>

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>>>>>

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>>>

>>

>>

>> --

>> JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall

>> Professor, Education Department

>> Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture Coordinator,

>> Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual

>> Education

>> University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC) 1000 Hilltop Circle,

>> Baltimore, MD 21250

>> ph: 410-455-2313/2376 fax: 410-455-8947/1880

>> email: crandall at umbc.edu

>> www.umbc.edu/llc/

>> www.umbc.edu/esol/

>> www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html

>>

>>

>>

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>

>

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> Email delivered to crandall at umbc.edu


JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall
Professor and Director
Language, Literacy and Culture Ph.D. Program
Director, Peace Corps Master's Intl Program in ESOL/Bilingual Education
University of Maryland Baltimore County
1000 Hilltop Circle
Baltimore, MD 21250
tel: 410-455-2313
fax: 410-455-8947
eml: crandall at umbc.edu




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