[Assessment 1203] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questionsor Comments?!

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Mary Jane Jerde mjjerdems at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 8 15:37:33 EST 2008


Interesting, especially on the last point. I'm currently attempting something like that with the English Verb Wall.

The books you mention would be great reference books for staff and students.

Mary Jane Jerde


Ted Klein <taklein at austin.rr.com> wrote: v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } Mary Jane,

If you want your students to get a better grasp on grammatical terminology I strongly recommend "Gramática Española para Estudiantes de Inglés" by Anna I Levenson. It not only gives the terminology in both English and Spanish, it gives examples from both languages. It is published by Olivia and Hill Press www.oliviahill.com Most Spanish-speaking students that I have had, inlcluding some university graduates, have never studied the grammar of their own language. They also have a book, "English Grammar for Students of Spanish," which is quite useful for ESL teachers who need a comparison of the two languages, particularly for problem analysis. They have similar materials for other languages that all look good. They are also quite readable. One doesn't need a docturate in linguistics to read them!

By the way. I teach all of the major verb tenses at one time and find that a holistic view is better than one or two tenses at a time. This even works for me at lower levels. My wife, who loves grammar, thinks I'm crazy. That's O.K.


Ted
www.tedklein-ESL.com


----- Original Message -----
From: Forrest Chisman
To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:00 PM
Subject: [Assessment 1168] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questionsor Comments?!


Mary Jane,

Thanks for this input. I gather that all of your classes mix students with different levels of higher education. Is that right? If so, how do you manage to find the time (or manage the class) so that you can provide this extra help to students with low levels of prior education? About how many hours/week do your classes meet? Also, I think we’d all like to hear some examples of the cooperation and teamwork you mention, and its results. This seems to be an important, but too little documented theme.

Forrest

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Mary Jane Jerde
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:31 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List; Jodi Crandall
Subject: [Assessment 1164] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or Comments?!


I was going to write a very similar message based on my experience working under Barbara Denman at the erstwhile refugee program in Prince George's County, Maryland.

Now that I work in a community college with ESL classes that span the lowest level ESL and academic experience to the higher levels of college credit classes, my experience has grown. The principles of both cooperation and teamwork in learning and separation by level still hold true. Students benefit from knowing that they need to help each other. It's part of our culture, surprise, surprise. The institution where I work has six levels of class for the various language skills, so there's lots of separation by level.

What I have found myself doing with high beginning students and intermediates with less education in their home countries is preparing them for the grammatical terms that will come their way if they continue to take ESL classes. I also work diligently with them to have a firm grasp of basic English grammar, especially verbs. This will help them at work or if they decide to begin ABE classes, where the grammar focus is not normally on their kind of grammar issues.

Mary Jane Jerde
ESL Instructor
Howard Community College

"Sadan, Noa" <Noa.Sadan at montgomerycollege.edu> wrote:
Years ago, the Montgomery County Refugee Training Program (Montgomery
College, Silver Spring, MD)had highly educated people with no English,
in class with literacy level students. It was certainly difficult
meeting the needs of all students, but in this intensive 20-hours/week
program, a tremendous mutual respect was fostered between the groups.
Typically, the highly educated students raced ahead with reading and
writing, while the literacy students sped ahead with oral language. The
Somali mother of nine would say to the Russian engineer, "I wish I could
read and write like you!", while the Russian woman would reply, "I wish
I could speak like you."

All this ended with a slightly different solution. The Refugee Center,
then under the direction of Donna Kinerney, divided that school day into
separate Listening,Reading and "Homeroom" classes. Homerooom took in all
skills, plus the introduction to the American workplace. This model was
in place when we began to get World English speakers who were not
literate. It provided a solution in which they could study in a
literacy-level reading/writing class, and interact in a higher level
Listening and Homeroom class.

-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 3:10 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1139] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!

Jackie and Forrest,

I think most large programs separate literacy level students from others
who are at a beginning level. I know that back in the 1980s when there
were large refugee ESL programs, several community colleges created
parallel ESL classes for the beginning levels and even into intermediate
levels, with one set of classes for students with limited literacy or
prior schooling and another for more educated students. The reason was
that the students with less education made slower progress. Some of
this is undoubtedly due to the way in which we teach English (requiring
literacy), but it is also because students need to become accustomed to
attending classes, learning to hold and use a pen or pencil, and a wide
range of basic skills that come with being a student in a class.

Those of you who have separate classes for those who need literacy:
Can
you tell us what kind of classes or program you provide?

Those who teach both literacy and more educated learners in the same
class: Can you let us know how you manage? What are some ways in which
you accommodate both sets of needs?

Jodi

> Forrest,

> I like the idea of separate classes for those with a literacy

> background and those without. These two groups have such different

> needs. Having both in the class make it difficult for a teacher to

> meet the needs of either group well and I find that often the stronger



> students dominate the class, and their drive push the teacher forward.



> If the instructor does not keep up with the students who are learning

> at a faster rate, they often become frustrated and leave or mentally

> check out. However, if the instructor keeps up with those students,

> the others are unable to keep up and they get frustrated.

> I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out. And regardless



> of how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.

> Jackie

>

>

> On 2/5/08, Forrest Chisman wrote:

>>

>> To all of you who commented on level of prior education as a factor

>> in student performance:

>>

>>

>>

>> Everyone with whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more

>> highly educated students do better in terms of persistence, learning



>> gains, and transitions. And learning theory would lead us to expect

>> this.

>> Regrettably

>> we found very little hard data about how much difference prior

>> education makes, because too few programs track the level of prior

>> education of their students and correlate it with outcomes. DO any of



>> you do this? That is, do you have any data on HOW MUCH difference

>> level of prior education makes?

>> Or

>> any strong impressions? And are there "cut points" in prior education



>> that seem to make a difference -- e.g. students who are completely

>> illiterate, students who at least reached high school, high school

>> graduates, college graduates, etc. -- or is level of prior education



>> pretty much of a continuum?

>>

>>

>>

>> More importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between

>> highly educated students and those with less prior education?

>> Presumably students with very low levels of education are more likely



>> end up in the lower level ESL courses (Literacy or Low-Beginning

>> levels) why are (almost by

>> definition) in the business of teaching basic literacy and sometimes



>> math.

>> Why isn't this enough? In your experience, does the "gap" exist at

>> these levels too, or mainly at higher levels? At any levels, would it



>> be desirable to place less highly educated students in separate

>> classes from those with more education and adjust the

>> curriculum/support systems for them accordingly? Some programs have

>> tried "native language literacy" or the Spanish GED. What has been

>> the experience of any of you with these approaches? Any other ideas?

>> IS there an adult ESL equivalent of "bi-lingual education" that

>> should be tried?

>>

>>

>>

>> It seems to me that we need to come up with better ideas. Because the



>> people who study immigration tell us that the level of education of

>> immigrants has been falling. And if Immigration Reform mandates large



>> numbers of undocumented people to "learn English" (whatever that

>> means), ESL programs may be swamped with students who have very

>> little education in their native countries and too little money to

>> serve them. So anyone who has any ideas about how to bridge this

>> "education gap" could help us a lot by posting ideas about how to

>> close it on this discussion list.

>>

>>

>>

>> Forrest Chisman

>>

>> Vice President

>>

>> CAAL

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> *From:* assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>> [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]

>> *On

>> Behalf Of *Tina_Luffman at yc.edu

>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM

>> *To:* The Assessment Discussion List

>> *Subject:* [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No

>> Questions or Comments?!

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Hi Jackie,

>>

>> Thank you for this information. I believe this research must be what

>> my former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for bilingual

>> education in the K-12 school system.

>>

>> Tina

>>

>> Tina Luffman

>> Coordinator, Developmental Education

>> Verde Valley Campus

>> 928-634-6544

>> tina_luffman at yc.edu

>>

>> *"Jackie Coelho" * Sent by:

>> assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>>

>> 02/05/2008 11:13 AM

>>

>> Please respond to

>> The Assessment Discussion List

>>

>> To

>>

>> "The Assessment Discussion List"

>>

>> cc

>>

>> Subject

>>

>> [Assessment 1108] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or

>> Comments?!

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Hi Tina,

>>

>> This has been researched already and is the basis for the arguement

>> in favor of bilingual education, a good idea that was not implemented



>> in the best way. For many years people have known that a good

>> foundation in literacy in the first language will facilitate learning



>> in a second or third language.

>>

>> Another interesting twist is the existence of languages that are not

>> written.

>>

>> Jackie

>>

>>

>> On 2/5/08, Tina_Luffman at yc.edu wrote:

>> > Hi list members,

>> >

>> > My experience teaching ELAA students in the GED class is similar to

>> that

>> of

>> > Gail. If the student has a solid educational background in the

>> > country

>> they

>> > came from in their native language, they tend to advance rather

>> quickly

>> and

>> > get their GED. Those coming with 6th grade educations from their

>> country

>> or

>> > lower tend to stay in the GED class for years and do not make much

>> > advancement.

>> >

>> > This experience relates well to research done among Native American

>> tribes

>> > teaching them English. Those Native Americans who were first taught

>> literacy

>> > skills in their own tongue learned English much quicker than those

>> > who

>> tried

>> > to learn literacy skills in English without that background in

>> > their

>> own

>> > tongue. I also found similar problems when I was learning Spanish.

>> > The concepts I could mentally translate from English to Spanish

>> > were much

>> easier

>> > to grasp and learn than those I didn't know in English. Perhaps

>> > this

>> is

>> > something deserving more research.

>> >

>> > Tina

>> > Tina Luffman

>> > Coordinator, Developmental Education Verde Valley Campus

>> > 928-634-6544

>> > tina_luffman at yc.edu

>> >

>> > -----assessment-bounces at nifl.gov wrote: -----

>> >

>> > To: "The Assessment Discussion List"

>> > From: "Gail Burnett" Sent by:

>> > assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

>> > Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM

>> > Subject: [Assessment 1104] {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or



>> > Comments?!

>> >

>> >

>> > Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed

>> > Warning: (not named).

>> > Warning: Please read the "AttachmentWarning.txt" attachment(s) for

>> more

>> > information.

>> >

>> > In our small adult education program, my experience (just about

>> > three

>> years)

>> > is that students with solid educational backgrounds advance,

>> particularly if

>> > they're not working too many hours. Those who advance the slowest,

>> > if

>> at

>> > all, are immigrants who are barely literate in their first

>> > language. I

>> would

>> > say that lack of education is a bigger factor than lack of time; a

>> student

>> > who works full-time and is exhausted often will still succeed

>> > because

>> he/she

>> > is familiar with academic work, and is goal-oriented. What we do is

>> try

>> to

>> > get our low-level students to come up with goals, but that's a hard

>> concept

>> > in a second language.

>> >

>> > This does not mean that the factors mentioned in the research don't

>> play

>> a

>> > part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained teachers

>> > (transitioned

>> from

>> > another career, got trained mainly through workshops rather than

>> classes).

>> > My skill level very well may contribute to students' slow

advancement.

>> It's

>> > hard for small adult education programs to get highly skilled ESL

>> teachers.

>> > The pay is low and there are no benefits. But my program is

>> encouraging

>> me

>> > to get extra training and has me on a plan of improvement. I think

>> we're

>> > making some progress.

>> >

>> > Does this address any of the issues? And am I submitting it right?

>> >

>> > ________________________________

>> >

>> > From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Marie Cora

>> > Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM

>> > To: Assessment at nifl.gov

>> > Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!

>> >

>> >

>> > Hello everyone,

>> >

>> > I'm so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding your



>> > program's effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? I was

>> > very curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of

>> > issues

>> that

>> Dr.

>> > Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack of

>> > intensity

>> of

>> > instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few

>> > opportunities

>> for

>> > professional development.

>> >

>> > What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL

>> student

>> > from advancing? What do you try to do about that?

>> >

>> > Please post your questions and comments now.

>> >

>> > Thanks!

>> >

>> > Marie Cora

>> > Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>> >

>> >

>> > Marie Cora

>> > marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

>> >

>> > NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator

>> >

>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment

>> >

>> >

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--
JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall
Professor, Education Department
Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture Coordinator,
Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual Education
University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC) 1000 Hilltop Circle,
Baltimore, MD 21250
ph: 410-455-2313/2376 fax: 410-455-8947/1880
email: crandall at umbc.edu
www.umbc.edu/llc/
www.umbc.edu/esol/
www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html



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