[Assessment 1220] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: NoQuestions orComments?!

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Forrest Chisman forrest at crosslink.net
Fri Feb 8 21:56:43 EST 2008


Jim,



I think you have the story right – as I understand it. Of course colleges in
many states don’t require a high school diploma at all – let alone a GED
score – for entry or placement. So it’s unlikely they would start doing that
now. What some Adult Education programs have done, however, is to counsel
their college-bound students to defer taking the test until they can attain
a higher score. While this advice isn’t always heeded, they claim it has
good results. I agree that the GED is used for many purposes and we don’t
want to unfairly disadvantage people. In fact, t may be used for too many
purposes. Some people would like to establish a terminal goal of
federal/stated funded Adult Education as a certificate of “college
readiness” -- with the GED as just a step along the road. Thus far, USDOE
hasn’t been willing to buy into it. Makes sense to me.



Forrest























From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Schneider, Jim
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 3:20 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1200] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: NoQuestions
orComments?!



Let me clarify... I don't know if the test is too hard - I am certain that
it is significantly harder than the old Spanish GED.



I do not speak Spanish, nor am I a psychometrician, however, in comparison
with the old Spanish GED that was written and normed with the Spanish
speaking population, the new form of the GED - having been translated from
the English, with the exact same content and questions as the English seems
contrived to me. And more than one native speaker of Spanish has commented
on the translations in the official practice tests. This may simply be my
bias having worked with both forms of the test.



Regarding the placement of GED recipient in developmental education - I
would wager that this is as true with the new test as it was with the old.
If you read the 1956 Tyler report on the GED, they knew that the score of
225 (average of 45 per subject exam) on the GED was not really adequate for
college preparation. However, they discovered that if they raised it to 250
(average of 50 per subject exam), college success was significantly
enhanced. Nevertheless, they recommended the 225 as a passing score because
if they increased the passing score to 250, several individuals who had been
successful in college would not have had that opportunity.



An earlier dissertation topic that I abandoned for lack of a theory-base was
to investigate whether a GED score of 2500 or 3000 might be a better
predictor of college success than the 2250? Despite the benefit of better
preparation, I'd hate to see the passing score be increased and make it that
much harder for so many who need the credential to get their foot in the
door. However, if my premise holds water, why couldn't colleges use the GED
as they do an ACT and either not accept a GED student with less than a ....
(pick a score), or if students with a score under ... (pick a score) is
admitted, recognize that they would likely need significant support and/or
remediation.



Jim S.



_____

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Forrest Chisman
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 12:37 PM
To: 'The Assessment Discussion List'
Subject: [Assessment 1193] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: NoQuestions
orComments?!

Jim,



I’m with Jodi on this. Many people would take exception with the idea that
the Spanish GED is too hard. I think people who have studied
economic/educational benefits by and large think BOTH the English and
Spanish GED’s, as well as high school diplomas, are TOO EASY. I believe the
research shows that GED holders have a far higher rate of placement in
developmental education than do high school graduates, but that data may be
based on the OLD GED.



Forrest



From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Jodi Crandall
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 11:49 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1185] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions
orComments?!



Jim,



I think you've summarized how I feel as well.



We can discuss the various options with students, but in the end, if we
offer Spanish Literacy and Spanish GED, it's their choice. Some will choose
to do everything in English and take longer to do it, but others will choose
to work in their own language. For some students, the Spanish GED provides
short-term benefits. But they will still need ESL for future academic or
vocational training, if they have limited English.



Have any programs tried to encourage students in Spanish Literacy or Spanish
GED to take ESL classes as well?



Jodi









On Feb 8, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Schneider, Jim wrote:



I feel compelled to put my two cents in on the Spanish GED.



My experience is that both Andres and Ted have valid points. Here in Eastern
Iowa, there are few bilingual employers. Employers that are bilingual rarely
pay the best wages and are typically short of employees if there are any
signs of INS.



On the other hand, many of the students who have completed the Spanish GED
are already employed, and have fairly decent English skills, but are short
on time. Attaining the GED provides them the opportunity for advancement at
work and/or access to postsecondary education/training.



It has been excruciating watch the one or two who insist on the GED in
English get through the Literature and Writing portions of the test.



And the difficulty of the new Spanish GED tests are such that it is a rare
student who can pass it. The old Spanish GED was attainable for most
learners who had a 6-8th grade education. We have found that it is virtually
impossible for anyone with less than a 10-11 grade education By simply
translating the English test into Spanish and then utilizing the standard
scores/norms of the English test, students who have passed it, have EARNED
their GED.



Jim S.



_____

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On
Behalf Of Ted Klein
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:49 AM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1175] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions
orComments?!

Andres,



I'm not too sure that some of your perspectives haven't been somewhat
altered by living in El Paso. I say that with total respect for El Paso and
for your answer. Let me explain. First, I've lived in Texas most of my life,
except for some time overseas. I know just about all of our border towns,
from El Paso to Brownsville. I've also lived in nine countries outside of
the United States and traveled perhaps in twenty more. AXIOM: All over the
world, border towns are different from other towns. Persons, regardless of
ancestry, who live in border towns anywhere tend to be bicultural and
bilingual. They also tend to identify with each other on close levels as
being a well-made "tossed salad." If most or all of your students plan to
stay in El Paso for the rest of their lives, I totally agree with what you
say. However, if they want to go to cities north of the border area; Dallas,
Ft. Worth, Austin, Houston, Waco, or out of state, then the picture changes.
I am almost as comfortable in Spanish as I am in English and have dealt with
persons from every country in Latin America comfortably and successfully, as
well as Spain. However, I do not represent anything close to a majority,
particularly when it comes to having a business. When persons go for job
interviews in non-border towns, being truly bilingual is a great asset and
can even result in higher pay and better opportunities. That is true for
Spanish speakers and English speakers. However, most of your persons who
have had to take the GED in Spanish are not truly bilingual. That's a fact
and when they go for a job interview, the human resources person doesn't
need paperwork to know that there may be communication problems with clients
and on the telephone. The fact is that life is short. However it is long
enough for persons to spend a couple of more years acquiring English if it
gives them more options in life. Again, if they plan to spend their lives in
a border town, this may not be a problem at all.



Three years ago, my wife and I and one of our colleagues, took an ESL
teaching gig at a cookie factory in Austin. Quite a few of their employees
did not speak English and the company wanted to fix that situation. There
were 27 persons who had volunteered to take English classes at work, maybe
six hours a week. The first problem was how to determine divisions of 27
students among three teachers. I got out a brief "test" that I had used to
determine readiness for the ALCPT tests in the past.



Here is a copy:



ORAL INTERVIEW QUESTIONS TO DETERMINE ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE



Block 2
Ted Klein



Questions marked with an asterisk * are mandatory. Of the remaining
questions, ten should be selected at random. Speech of the interviewer will
be at normal speed and clarity, with NO exaggeration.



1. What is your name please?*
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



2. Where are you from?* -------



3. What part of XXXXXXX are you from?-------



4. What is your native language? -------



5. How long have you been in America? -------



6. Do you read English?* -------



7. Did you study English in your country? -------



8. How long did you study English? -------



9. Are you enjoying the U.S.A? -------



10. What do you like here? -------



11. Is there anything that you don't like? -------



12. Have you studied any other languages besides English? -------



13. Why do you want to learn English? -------



14. How many years of education have you had? -------



15. Do you have any hobbies? What are they? -------



16. Do you have any American friends to practice English with? -------



17. Do you work? Where? -------



18. What are your plans for the future? -------



19. Why did you come to America? -------



20. Do you have any questions for me? -------





Mark responses: 0 no answer. 0+ telegraphic/very simple response.

1 simple, but complete response. 1+ functional and clear response.

2 somewhat elaborate, fairly clear and mostly grammatical response.



Interviewees with ten or more answers in the 1+ to 2 range should be ready
to take a written

proficiency test of listening and reading skills. Non-readers are excluded.
(ref: Ques. 6)



The three of us interviewed the 27 candidates together. 19 out of the 27
were not able to answer the second question: e.g. (Teacher) Where are you
from?

(Candidate) ¿Mande? (Teacher) Where are you from? ¿Como? (Teacher) Are you
from Mexico? (Candidate) México, "jes." One answered, "México, no, Peru sí."



The 8 students who were able to answer that question and maybe four or five
more questions were assigned to an "advanced class." The others were split
into two groups. What happened here? Many of these persons had lived in
Austin for some time. Some for up to ten years. Most had families. The
families naturally used Spanish at home, even their children who spoke
English at school. They had Spanish-speaking supervisors. They watched
television in Spanish. They ate at Mexican restaurants. They went to
Spanish-speaking doctors. 95% of their friends were Hispanic. In plain
language, if they wanted to stay at the cookie factory, making cookies, they
didn't need English, although the company preferred that they know English
for upward mobility. This program went on for three or four months.The
company merged and our program ended. We did not use Spanish in class. In
early training I use materials that I developed based on some of the old
"direct methods;" picture flashcards, Cuisenaire rods, etc. and we also
concentrated strongly on English sounds, particularly listening and
identification. The program went surprisingly well and many of the students
were very disappointed when it ended. They had already found some new places
to go and some were acquiring English-speaking friends.



So what is the good news? Several of our former students have entered the
Austin Community College AE program and are doing well. One of them is in my
class now. She has a child and often works at night at the cookie factory.
Sometimes she comes in looking very tired, but she's surviving. She wants to
be a Certified Nursing Assistant. She'll make it! She plans to take the GED
in English next year and enter the Nursing Program at ACC. Most of her
future patients will not be bilingual and she will be ready for them.



That's about it.



Ted

www.tedklein-ESL.com



----- Original Message -----

From: andresmuro at aol.com

To: assessment at nifl.gov

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:02 PM

Subject: [Assessment 1153] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!



Ted:

How would the employer know the language that Julian took the GED in?
In most states the certificate does not tell you the Language. Texas is one
of the few states that tells you the language. However, it is so hard to
find that most people wouldn't even know. I have a hard time finding the
language reference even though I have seen millions of certificates. Fact is
most employers don't even know that people can take the GED in anything
other than English, don't ask and do not scrutinize certificates to figure
out scores, language, etc. A few might, but the majority don't. For low
literacy Spanish speakers it may take them a couple of years to be ready to
take the GED in Spanish. It make take them 2 more years to be ready for the
English GED. Would you rather hold them two more years. They can take the
GED in Spanish and continue to study English. Once they have sufficient
English, they can decide if they want to take it in English or to move on to
other things.

Andres





-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Klein <taklein at austin.rr.com>
To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>
Sent: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 6:58 am
Subject: [Assessment 1150] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!

Jodi and Andres,



There is one very real problem with taking the GED in Spanish that I'm aware
of. If you have two immigrants, Roberto and Juán, and they both apply for
the same job and if Juán took the GED in Spanish and Roberto took it in
English, guess who gets the job?

Yes, life isn't fair, but most U.S. businesses prefer persons who have gone
"all the way" with English. My students and I have discussed this and they
have seen or know of this situation with their friends and family members.
That is why many AE students remain longer in our ESL classes. Of course in
many border towns, this may not be as important since many of the employers
are Hispanic or are native speakers of English who are functional in
Spanish. However, many customers of the businesses will need to use English.




In my current class in Austin, Texas with eleven students, five different
languages are spoken. Should we offer the GED in Arabic, Chinese, Korean,
and Juba as well as Spanish?





Ted

www.tedklein-ESL.com







----- Original Message -----

From: andresmuro at aol.com

To: crandall at umbc.edu ; assessment at nifl.gov

Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:21 PM

Subject: [Assessment 1146] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!



Jodi:

The credit ESL program in the college is very academic. However it provides
students with financial aid and other goodies. We feel that the students
will not do well in a credit academic ESL program until they have a level
comparable to GED in their native language. Also, a GED certificate is a way
to demonstrate ability to benefit to qualify for financial aid. Those
students who get into the credit ESL program without native language
literacy don't do well.

Students can attend other ESL classes in the community while they are
attending our classes. We stopped providing ESL because of limited funding
to provide what we would consider meaningful ESL. Also, our Spanish GED
program is fairly intensive and our students would not have enough time to
attend an additional program. We have a few students who may be attending
our classes and an ESL class concurrently. Those are a minority

The truth is that we started as an ESL literacy program many years ago.
There was virtually no funding for literacy ESL unless it had all kind of
testing requirements. Also, it is very hard to train teachers to be really
good at ESL. The system that encourages large number of untrained part
timers prevents this from happening.

I know that a lot of people in these listservs claim exemplary service and
illustrate with examples of what they have done. I don't doubt that their
claims are 100% true. However, we are in the minority. If I could get you
and Heide and Elsa and Andy Nash and Leonore and Deborah Schwartz, and Anson
Green and Federico and others to be my ESL teachers, I would have the best
program in the world. However, the fact is that in addition to the barriers
that ESL students face in their daily lives, plus the bureaucratic and
assessment barriers that the system creates for teachers and students, plus
the difficulty hiring and retaining highly qualified ESL staff makes it very
difficult to have a successful ESL program.

I feel that until we get rid of WIA/NRS it will be tough to create good
stuff in a systematic way.

Andres





-----Original Message-----
From: JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall <crandall at umbc.edu>
To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>
Sent: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 1:27 pm
Subject: [Assessment 1141] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!

Andres,



























































It is great that you provide Spanish language literacy and GED classes for





























your students. There's no question that native language literacy





























contributes not just to the development of the first language, but also to





























English language development when students take oral ESL classes. There





























is some research in this area by Michele Burtoff with Haitians in the U.S.





























and there is a lot of research (see especially research by David Ramirez





























which compares children who had 6, 3 or no years of bilingual education)





























that shows that providing bilingual education not only has all the





























benefits that would be expected, but students also achieve in English as





























well or better than those who only had instruction in English.



























































We also found that Spanish GED classes had large numbers of students at





























the colleges, since students who take the GED in Spanish are able to





























bypass the need for extensive ESL just to get this credential. They might





























want to take ESL as well, but the desire for the GED is often for





























work-related reasons. I'm not clear on why you ask students to wait until





























after they have passed the GED to take ESL classes. Can you tell us a





























little more about that?



























































Of course not all students who enroll in adult ESL are Spanish speakers





























and there may not be enough who speak any language to provide literacy





























classes for them in their own language, but programs might try to partner





























with immigrant or refugee-related community-based organizations which





























could reach more students and also identify someone to provide the





























instruction. Still, there will be students who will not be able to take





























literacy classes in their own languages and for them, a separate ESL





























literacy class seems to be the best option.



























































It would be great to hear from others about their experiences both with





























first language (Spanish and other languages) literacy classes, Spanish GED





























classes, and literacy ESL classes.



























































How do you place students in your literacy classes? Do you use a





























standardized test or do you have informal ways of determining if someone





























would be better served in a literacy ESL class?

























































































Jodi




























































>































> Problem is that in many ESL people are placed in ESL classes based on an































> English placement multiple choice test. A student with advanced education































> in L1 and one with little education in L1 may know very little English































> and they may both be placed in the same level. The student with advance































> education will progress much faster than the one with little education.































> The advanced L1 student will understand concepts like sentence,































> paragraph, verb, subject, direct object, adjective, composition and essay































> readily. The one with with little education will need to understand these































> concepts. It takes a while for people to master these concepts. A highly































> educated L2? learner will likely progress faster academically in a second































> language than a fluent native speaker of that? language with limited































> academic education, for the same reason. This is observed regularly in































> universities all over the US. highly educated foreign students who































> acquired English as L2 recently will do better than their Eng































> lish speaking counterparts in academic tasks in English. Jim Cummins has































> articulated this clearly with his BICS and CALPS.































>































> In our program at El Paso Community College we have found evidence of































> this. We stopped doing literacy ESL a while back for this reason. The































> college has an academic ESL program. Instead of doing ESL literacy we































> started offering Spanish Literacy and GED many years ago since the vast































> majority of our students are Spanish speakers. Once our students acquire































> their Spanish GED they transition into the ESL program and do better than































> those students who don't have L1 academic skills. Even if takes them a































> while to acquire the L1 literacy, they will do better. Those with no L1































> literacy often stay in ESL forever and they drop out, start again in































> another program, drop out and continue the same pattern. I think that this































> happens because of the mixture of academically ready students and those































> that are not ready, since most ESL programs focus on traditional































> academics. For L1 low literacy students to be able to progress in L2 there































> has to be a program specifically designed for them that teache































> s skills in L2 in new and innovative ways without interference from































> academically skilled L1 students. Right now we don't have a system that































> systematically does this, and the WIA/NRS system prevents this form































> happening.































>































> Hope that this makes sense,































>































> Andres































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































> -----Original Message-----































> From: Jackie Coelho <jackie.coelho at gmail.com>































> To: The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>































> Sent: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 5:01 am































> Subject: [Assessment 1128] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or































> Comments?!































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































> Forrest,































>































>































> ?? I like the idea of separate classes for those with a literacy































> background and those without. These two groups have such different needs.































> Having both in the class make it difficult for a teacher to meet the needs































> of either group well and I find that often the stronger students dominate































> the class, and their drive push the teacher forward. If the instructor































> does not keep up with the students who are learning at a faster rate, they































> often become frustrated and leave or mentally check out. However, if the































> instructor keeps up with those students, the others are unable to keep up































> and they get frustrated.































>































>































>































> ? I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out. And regardless of































> how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.































>































>































> Jackie































>































> ?































>































>































> On 2/5/08, Forrest Chisman <forrest at crosslink.net> wrote:































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































> To all of you who commented on level of prior education as a factor in































> student performance:































>































>































> ?































>































>































> Everyone with whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more highly































> educated students do better in terms of ?persistence, learning gains, and































> transitions. And learning theory would lead us to expect this. Regrettably































> we found very little hard data about how much difference prior education































> makes, because too few programs track the level of prior education of































> their students and correlate it with outcomes. DO any of you do this? That































> is, do you have any data on HOW MUCH difference level of prior education































> makes? Or any strong impressions? And are there "cut points" in prior































> education that seem to make a difference -- e.g. students who are































> completely illiterate, students who at least reached high school, high































> school graduates, college graduates, etc. -- ?or is level of prior































> education pretty much of a continuum?































>































>































>































> ?































>































>































> More importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between highly































> educated students and those with less prior education? Presumably students































> with very low levels of education are more likely end up in the lower































> level ESL courses (Literacy or Low-Beginning levels) why are (almost by































> definition) ?in the business of teaching basic literacy and sometimes































> math. Why isn't this enough? In your experience, does the "gap" exist at































> these levels too, or mainly at higher levels? At any levels, would it be































> desirable to place less highly educated students in separate classes from































> those with more education and adjust the curriculum/support systems for































> them accordingly? Some programs have tried "native language literacy" or































> the Spanish GED. What has been the experience of any of you with these































> approaches? Any other ideas? IS there an adult ESL equivalent of































> "bi-lingual education" that should be tried?































>































>































>































> ?































>































>































> It seems to me that we need to come up with better ideas. Because the































> people who study immigration tell us that the level of education of































> immigrants has been falling. And if Immigration Reform mandates large































> numbers of undocumented people to "learn English" (whatever that means),































> ESL programs may be swamped with students who have very little education































> in their native countries and too little money to serve them. ?So anyone































> who has any ideas about how to bridge this "education gap" could help us a































> lot by posting ideas about how to close it on this discussion list.































>































>































>































> ?































>































>































> Forrest Chisman































>































>































> Vice President































>































>































> CAAL































>































>































> ?































>































>































> ??































>































>































> ?































>































>































>































>































> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov

<mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov?> ] On






























> Behalf Of Tina_Luffman at yc.edu































>































> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM































> To: The Assessment Discussion List































> Subject: [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or































> Comments?!































>































>































>































>































>































>































> ?































>































>































>































> Hi Jackie,































>































> Thank you for this information. I believe this research must be what my































> former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for bilingual education































> in the K-12 school system.































>































>































> Tina































>































> Tina Luffman































> Coordinator, Developmental Education































> Verde Valley Campus































> 928-634-6544































> tina_luffman at yc.edu































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































>































> "Jackie Coelho" <jackie.coelho at gmail.com>































>































> Sent by: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov































>































>































> 02/05/2008 11:13 AM































>































>































>































>































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> [Assessment 1108] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or ? ? ?































> ?Comments?!































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> ?































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>































> Hi Tina,































>































> This has been researched already and is the basis for the arguement in































> favor of bilingual education, a good idea that was not implemented in































>































> the best way. For many years people have known that a good foundation































> in literacy in the first language will facilitate learning in a second































> or third language.































>































> Another interesting twist is the existence of languages that are not































> written.































>































>































> Jackie































>































>































> On 2/5/08, Tina_Luffman at yc.edu <Tina_Luffman at yc.edu> wrote:































>































>> Hi list members,































>>































>> My experience teaching ELAA students in the GED class is similar to that































>> of































>> Gail. If the student has a solid educational background in the country































>> they































>































>> came from in their native language, they tend to advance rather quickly































>> and































>> get their GED. Those coming with 6th grade educations from their country































>> or































>> lower tend to stay in the GED class for years and do not make much































>































>> advancement.































>>































>> This experience relates well to research done among Native American































>> tribes































>> teaching them English. Those Native Americans who were first taught































>> literacy































>































>> skills in their own tongue learned English much quicker than those who































>> tried































>> to learn literacy skills in English without that background in their own































>> tongue. I also found similar problems when I was learning Spanish. The































>































>> concepts I could mentally translate from English to Spanish were much































>> easier































>> to grasp and learn than those I didn't know in English. Perhaps this is































>> something deserving more research.































>































>>































>> Tina































>> Tina Luffman































>> Coordinator, Developmental Education































>> Verde Valley Campus































>> 928-634-6544































>> tina_luffman at yc.edu































>































>>































>> -----assessment-bounces at nifl.gov wrote: -----































>>































>> To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>































>































>> From: "Gail Burnett" <gburnett at sanford.org>































>> Sent by: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov































>































>> Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM































>> Subject: [Assessment 1104] {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or































>> Comments?!































>>































>>































>> Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed































>































>> Warning: (not named).































>> Warning: Please read the "AttachmentWarning.txt" attachment(s) for more































>> information.































>>































>> In our small adult education program, my experience (just about three































>> years)































>































>> is that students with solid educational backgrounds advance,































>> particularly if































>> they're not working too many hours. Those who advance the slowest, if at































>> all, are immigrants who are barely literate in their first language. I































>> would































>































>> say that lack of education is a bigger factor than lack of time; a































>> student































>> who works full-time and is exhausted often will still succeed because































>> he/she































>> is familiar with academic work, and is goal-oriented. What we do is try































>> to































>































>> get our low-level students to come up with goals, but that's a hard































>> concept































>> in a second language.































>>































>> This does not mean that the factors mentioned in the research don't play































>> a































>































>> part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained teachers (transitioned































>> from































>> another career, got trained mainly through workshops rather than































>> classes).































>> My skill level very well may contribute to students' slow advancement.































>> It's































>































>> hard for small adult education programs to get highly skilled ESL































>> teachers.































>> The pay is low and there are no benefits. But my program is encouraging































>> me































>> to get extra training and has me on a plan of improvement. I think we're































>































>> making some progress.































>>































>> Does this address any of the issues? And am I submitting it right?































>>































>> ________________________________































>>































>































>> From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Marie Cora































>> Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM































>































>> To: Assessment at nifl.gov































>> Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!































>































>>































>>































>> Hello everyone,































>>































>> I'm so surprised! ?No one has anything to comment on regarding your































>> program's effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? ?I was very































>































>> curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of issues that































>> Dr.































>> Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: ?a lack of intensity































>> of































>> instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few opportunities































>> for































>































>> professional development.































>>































>> What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL































>> student































>> from advancing? ?What do you try to do about that?































>>































>































>> Please post your questions and comments now.































>>































>> Thanks!































>>































>> Marie Cora































>> Assessment Discussion List Moderator































>>































>>































>































>> Marie Cora































>> marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com































>> <mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com

<mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com?> >






























>































>> NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator































>> http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment































>































>>































>>































>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and































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>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are































>> addressed.































>> If you have received this email in error please notify the system































>> manager.































>































>> This message contains confidential information and is intended only for































>> the































>> individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not































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--





























JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall





























Professor, Education Department





























Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture





























Coordinator, Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual





























Education





























University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC)





























1000 Hilltop Circle, Baltimore, MD 21250





























ph: 410-455-2313/2376 fax: 410-455-8947/1880





























email: crandall at umbc.edu





























www.umbc.edu/llc/





























www.umbc.edu/esol/





























www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html























































































































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Director, Peace Corps Master's Intl Program in ESOL/Bilingual Education

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Baltimore, MD 21250

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