[Assessment 1231] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions orComments?!

Archived Content Disclaimer

This page contains archived content from a LINCS email discussion list that closed in 2012. This content is not updated as part of LINCS’ ongoing website maintenance, and hyperlinks may be broken.

Mary Jane Jerde mjjerdems at yahoo.com
Sat Feb 9 09:14:25 EST 2008


It probably depends upon the developing culture of the program, relative to several factors.

In my experience, part of this is in the packaging as mentioned below. I have had successful auctions with students from Viet Nam, Sierra Leone, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Ghana, Haiti, Bosnia. The items are in good as new condition, useful and mostly not clothes. Everyone gets an equal amount of money in different forms each time: paper dollars, bills and change, a ledger to be verified by student bankers. At very least they've enjoy it as a game in English.

The students are in the US now. Exposing them to various views of secondhand items as part of shopping is a fair enough part of our job as ESL instructors or programs, besides the workplace skills. I've asked about how or if they share children's clothes in their families. This has been a safe starting point so far and allows for a discussion of differences. A field trip to a nearby secondhand store is how we began our process. We had also visited a nearby grocery store. It does provide a lot of opportunities to discuss pricing, discounts, percents, etc.

The students should not be forced or expected to buy or accept anything. They do not embarrass someone by refusing something. What they think or do is their business. Being able to discuss this is a good way to practice important conversation skills.

Mary Jane Jerde

Mary Lynn Simons <macsimoin at hotmail.com> wrote: .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } I totally agree. Second-hand clothes are often seen as "dead people's clothes". Also, it can be offensive to students if they believe this is all teachers think they can afford. We had a white elephant sale at our school once and it bombed. The students did not like the idea of old gifts. They considered in unbelievably tacky. These were Mexican students. The "dead people's clothes" came from a woman from Nepal.


---------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:04:13 -0500
From: mburt at cal.org
To: assessment at nifl.gov
Subject: [Assessment 1199] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions orComments?!

Noa and others,

I like the idea of the snack bar very much, but I'm curious about how the concept of buying and wearing second hand clothing from strangers, if you will, is received by the students. My experience is that the idea purchasing and wearing someone else's second-hand clothes and items is actually one that doesn't always translate across all cultures. True, the idea is highly positive among middle class here in the U.S. where it is seen as a way of saving money, being "green," and not wasting resources -- and this is demonstsrated by the prolitferation of trendy 2nd hand boutiques in cities and ads on Craig's list to sell gently used baby clothes (even diapers! ) and toys. However, some cultural groups may find the idea of buying and wearing someone else's clothing as "charity" (as Jodi says below) or something somewhat distasteful. Perhaps the fact that all items are 50 cents takes that edge off? Has anyone else had this experience with the concept of 2nd
hand items and other cultures?

Great discussion here!
Miriam
**********
Center for Adult English Language Acquisition
Center for Applied Linguistics
4646 40th Street NW
Washington, DC 20016
(202) 362-0700
(202) 363-7204 (fax)
mburt at cal.org (email)



---------------------------------

From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Jodi Crandall
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 1:18 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1192] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions orComments?!
Importance: Low



Noa,

These are fabulous ideas. I especially like the emphasis on how literacy level students can help those who are more educated and also cooperate and compete with them in the snack bar and boutique.


You have provided clear guidance on how to maximize both groups' strengths and also encourage them to learn from each other.


By the way, "boutique" is so much more positive a name than the usual "closet" or another name that sounds like it's charity.


Do others have suggestions of ways of accommodating literacy level and more educated students in the same class.


Jodi

On Feb 8, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Sadan, Noa wrote:

Jodi,

The classroom mix of the highly educated literate students who didn't know English with the literacy level beginning English students was often a challenge. The first (unstated) task was to help the educated students realize that they might learn a great deal from those who picked up oral language faster than they did.

Techniques for dealing with the mixed levels:
The Key: fostering a sense of community within the class
Main technique: Group work - teacher as enabler, moving around the groups

extra reading help in reading given while class was working on either written assignments or group projects
groups were mixed
always by language
occasionally by gender
rarely by ability (only when reading lessons specifically for the literacy group were held)

School Job: The Refugee Center has a working Snack Bar, and Boutique (donated clothing - everything sells for fifty cents/item).

students polish their abilty to work together
students learn chain of command (literacy level students are supervisors just as often as the highly educated, since they often have a verbal advantage)
literacy-level students could make coffee, serve as a cashier, and give excellent customer service
a highly educated accountant who cannot get out an English sentence orally, could create a cost-accounting spreadsheet see if it was less expensive to buy bulk sugar or packets for coffee.
Other projects are used as well - making recipe books, making student profile books. Today, with the use of the computer, the possibilities are endless for activities for mixed classes.

Noa



---------------------------------
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov] On Behalf Of Jodi Crandall
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:59 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1152] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions orComments?!



Noa,

Thanks for sharing this. How wonderful to have had 20 hours per week for these students. Besides mutual respect (which is very important), were there ways in which students could use their complementary skills to help each other. If you could describe some of the activities that you or others used that were helpful, that would be great.


If others of you could share your experiences with mixed classes, and how you coped with them, I think a lot of us would be interested.


The change to separate Listening, Reading and "Homeroom" classes is also a very interesting way of meeting the needs of this diverse population. I know that many community colleges separate their instruction in adult ESL to oral language skills (Listening/Speaking) and written language (Reading/Writing) skills. Are there others out there who could share your experiences in this regard?


The presence of World English speakers and Generation 1.5 speakers in adult ESL has further complicated the situation. I'd be interested in knowing how others have dealt with such diverse students in adult ESL/ESOL.


Jodi





n Feb 7, 2008, at 12:16 PM, Sadan, Noa wrote:
Years ago, the Montgomery County Refugee Training Program (Montgomery
College, Silver Spring, MD)had highly educated people with no English,
in class with literacy level students. It was certainly difficult
meeting the needs of all students, but in this intensive 20-hours/week
program, a tremendous mutual respect was fostered between the groups.
Typically, the highly educated students raced ahead with reading and
writing, while the literacy students sped ahead with oral language. The
Somali mother of nine would say to the Russian engineer, "I wish I could
read and write like you!", while the Russian woman would reply, "I wish
I could speak like you."


All this ended with a slightly different solution. The Refugee Center,
then under the direction of Donna Kinerney, divided that school day into
separate Listening,Reading and "Homeroom" classes. Homerooom took in all
skills, plus the introduction to the American workplace. This model was
in place when we began to get World English speakers who were not
literate. It provided a solution in which they could study in a
literacy-level reading/writing class, and interact in a higher level
Listening and Homeroom class.


-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov [mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
On Behalf Of JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 3:10 PM
To: The Assessment Discussion List
Subject: [Assessment 1139] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!


Jackie and Forrest,


I think most large programs separate literacy level students from others
who are at a beginning level. I know that back in the 1980s when there
were large refugee ESL programs, several community colleges created
parallel ESL classes for the beginning levels and even into intermediate
levels, with one set of classes for students with limited literacy or
prior schooling and another for more educated students. The reason was
that the students with less education made slower progress. Some of
this is undoubtedly due to the way in which we teach English (requiring
literacy), but it is also because students need to become accustomed to
attending classes, learning to hold and use a pen or pencil, and a wide
range of basic skills that come with being a student in a class.


Those of you who have separate classes for those who need literacy:
Can
you tell us what kind of classes or program you provide?


Those who teach both literacy and more educated learners in the same
class: Can you let us know how you manage? What are some ways in which
you accommodate both sets of needs?


Jodi
Forrest,
I like the idea of separate classes for those with a literacy
background and those without. These two groups have such different
needs. Having both in the class make it difficult for a teacher to
meet the needs of either group well and I find that often the stronger


students dominate the class, and their drive push the teacher forward.


If the instructor does not keep up with the students who are learning
at a faster rate, they often become frustrated and leave or mentally
check out. However, if the instructor keeps up with those students,
the others are unable to keep up and they get frustrated.
I think that literacy could perhaps be separated out. And regardless


of how you do it, well-trained instructors are essential.
Jackie




On 2/5/08, Forrest Chisman <forrest at crosslink.net> wrote:


To all of you who commented on level of prior education as a factor
in student performance:






Everyone with whom Jodi Crandall and I talked believes that more
highly educated students do better in terms of persistence, learning


gains, and transitions. And learning theory would lead us to expect
this.
Regrettably
we found very little hard data about how much difference prior
education makes, because too few programs track the level of prior
education of their students and correlate it with outcomes. DO any of


you do this? That is, do you have any data on HOW MUCH difference
level of prior education makes?
Or
any strong impressions? And are there "cut points" in prior education


that seem to make a difference -- e.g. students who are completely
illiterate, students who at least reached high school, high school
graduates, college graduates, etc. -- or is level of prior education


pretty much of a continuum?






More importantly, what can programs DO to narrow the gap between
highly educated students and those with less prior education?
Presumably students with very low levels of education are more likely


end up in the lower level ESL courses (Literacy or Low-Beginning
levels) why are (almost by
definition) in the business of teaching basic literacy and sometimes


math.
Why isn't this enough? In your experience, does the "gap" exist at
these levels too, or mainly at higher levels? At any levels, would it


be desirable to place less highly educated students in separate
classes from those with more education and adjust the
curriculum/support systems for them accordingly? Some programs have
tried "native language literacy" or the Spanish GED. What has been
the experience of any of you with these approaches? Any other ideas?
IS there an adult ESL equivalent of "bi-lingual education" that
should be tried?






It seems to me that we need to come up with better ideas. Because the


people who study immigration tell us that the level of education of
immigrants has been falling. And if Immigration Reform mandates large


numbers of undocumented people to "learn English" (whatever that
means), ESL programs may be swamped with students who have very
little education in their native countries and too little money to
serve them. So anyone who has any ideas about how to bridge this
"education gap" could help us a lot by posting ideas about how to
close it on this discussion list.






Forrest Chisman


Vice President


CAAL














*From:* assessment-bounces at nifl.gov
[mailto:assessment-bounces at nifl.gov]
*On
Behalf Of *Tina_Luffman at yc.edu
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:32 PM
*To:* The Assessment Discussion List
*Subject:* [Assessment 1109] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No
Questions or Comments?!








Hi Jackie,


Thank you for this information. I believe this research must be what
my former Spanish teacher was basing her argument on for bilingual
education in the K-12 school system.


Tina


Tina Luffman
Coordinator, Developmental Education
Verde Valley Campus
928-634-6544
tina_luffman at yc.edu


*"Jackie Coelho" <jackie.coelho at gmail.com>* Sent by:
assessment-bounces at nifl.gov


02/05/2008 11:13 AM


Please respond to
The Assessment Discussion List <assessment at nifl.gov>


To


"The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>


cc


Subject


[Assessment 1108] Re: {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or
Comments?!












Hi Tina,


This has been researched already and is the basis for the arguement
in favor of bilingual education, a good idea that was not implemented


in the best way. For many years people have known that a good
foundation in literacy in the first language will facilitate learning


in a second or third language.


Another interesting twist is the existence of languages that are not
written.


Jackie




On 2/5/08, Tina_Luffman at yc.edu <Tina_Luffman at yc.edu> wrote:
Hi list members,


My experience teaching ELAA students in the GED class is similar to
that
of
Gail. If the student has a solid educational background in the
country
they
came from in their native language, they tend to advance rather
quickly
and
get their GED. Those coming with 6th grade educations from their
country
or
lower tend to stay in the GED class for years and do not make much
advancement.


This experience relates well to research done among Native American
tribes
teaching them English. Those Native Americans who were first taught
literacy
skills in their own tongue learned English much quicker than those
who
tried
to learn literacy skills in English without that background in
their
own
tongue. I also found similar problems when I was learning Spanish.
The concepts I could mentally translate from English to Spanish
were much
easier
to grasp and learn than those I didn't know in English. Perhaps
this
is
something deserving more research.


Tina
Tina Luffman
Coordinator, Developmental Education Verde Valley Campus
928-634-6544
tina_luffman at yc.edu


-----assessment-bounces at nifl.gov wrote: -----


To: "The Assessment Discussion List" <assessment at nifl.gov>
From: "Gail Burnett" <gburnett at sanford.org> Sent by:
assessment-bounces at nifl.gov
Date: 02/04/2008 06:34PM
Subject: [Assessment 1104] {Dangerous Content?} RE: No Questions or


Comments?!




Warning: This message has had one or more attachments removed
Warning: (not named).
Warning: Please read the "AttachmentWarning.txt" attachment(s) for
more
information.


In our small adult education program, my experience (just about
three
years)
is that students with solid educational backgrounds advance,
particularly if
they're not working too many hours. Those who advance the slowest,
if
at
all, are immigrants who are barely literate in their first
language. I
would
say that lack of education is a bigger factor than lack of time; a
student
who works full-time and is exhausted often will still succeed
because
he/she
is familiar with academic work, and is goal-oriented. What we do is
try
to
get our low-level students to come up with goals, but that's a hard
concept
in a second language.


This does not mean that the factors mentioned in the research don't
play
a
part, though. I'm one of those barely-trained teachers
(transitioned
from
another career, got trained mainly through workshops rather than
classes).
My skill level very well may contribute to students' slow
advancement.
It's
hard for small adult education programs to get highly skilled ESL
teachers.
The pay is low and there are no benefits. But my program is
encouraging
me
to get extra training and has me on a plan of improvement. I think
we're
making some progress.


Does this address any of the issues? And am I submitting it right?


________________________________


From: assessment-bounces at nifl.gov on behalf of Marie Cora
Sent: Mon 2/4/2008 6:50 PM
To: Assessment at nifl.gov
Subject: [Assessment 1103] No Questions or Comments?!




Hello everyone,


I'm so surprised! No one has anything to comment on regarding your


program's effectiveness at helping ESL students advance?? I was
very curious to know if subscribers experience the same types of
issues
that
Dr.
Chisman and Dr. Crandall found in their research: a lack of
intensity
of
instruction/few protocols for transitioning students/few
opportunities
for
professional development.


What are the issues in your program that you feel inhibit the ESL
student
from advancing? What do you try to do about that?


Please post your questions and comments now.


Thanks!


Marie Cora
Assessment Discussion List Moderator




Marie Cora
marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com
<mailto:marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>
NIFL Assessment Discussion List Moderator
<marie.cora at hotspurpartners.com>
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment




This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
If you have received this email in error please notify the system
manager.
This message contains confidential information and is intended only
for
the
individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not


disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
<http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to tina_luffman at yc.edu




-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
<http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to jackie.coelho at gmail.com






-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
<http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to tina_luffman at yc.edu
<http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment>


-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to jackie.coelho at gmail.com




-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to crandall at umbc.edu






--
JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall
Professor, Education Department
Director, Ph.D. Program in Language, Literacy & Culture Coordinator,
Peace Corps Master's International Program in ESOL/Bilingual Education
University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC) 1000 Hilltop Circle,
Baltimore, MD 21250
ph: 410-455-2313/2376 fax: 410-455-8947/1880
email: crandall at umbc.edu
www.umbc.edu/llc/
www.umbc.edu/esol/
www.umbc.edu/esol/peacecorps.html






-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to
http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to noa.sadan at montgomerycollege.edu
-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to crandall at umbc.edu







-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to crandall at umbc.edu


JoAnn (Jodi) Crandall
Professor and Director
Language, Literacy and Culture Ph.D. Program
Director, Peace Corps Master's Intl Program in ESOL/Bilingual Education
University of Maryland Baltimore County
1000 Hilltop Circle
Baltimore, MD 21250
tel: 410-455-2313
fax: 410-455-8947
eml: crandall at umbc.edu










---------------------------------
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.-------------------------------
National Institute for Literacy
Assessment mailing list
Assessment at nifl.gov
To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, please go to http://www.nifl.gov/mailman/listinfo/assessment
Email delivered to mjjerdems at yahoo.com



---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lincs.ed.gov/pipermail/assessment/attachments/20080209/536fa264/attachment.html